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Forum Archive verse 42
Verse Forty Two
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008
Verse Forty Two
Wing-Tsit Chan, 1963
Tao produced the One.
The One produced the two.
The two produced the three.
And the three produced the ten thousand things.
The ten thousand things carry the yin and embrace the yang,
and through the blending of the material force they achieve harmony.
People hate to be children without parents, lonely people without spouses, or men without food to eat,
And yet kings and lords call themselves by these names.
Therefore it is often the case that things gain by losing and lose by gaining.
What others have taught, I teach also: "Violent and fierce people do not die a natural death."
I shall make this the father of my teaching.
Verse Forty Two
George Cronk, 1999
Out of Tao, One.
Out of One, Two.
Out of Two, Three.
Out of Three, all things.
All things carry Yin and face Yang.
Out of the union of Yin and Yang, harmony.
No one wants to be "orphaned," " widowed," or "unworthy."
But kings and princes use these words as titles for themselves.
You win by losing. You lose by winning.
It has been said, and I agree, "A violent man dies violently."
Verse Forty Two
Gia-Fu Feng & Jane English, 1972
The Tao begot one.
One begot two.
Two begot three.
And three begot the ten thousand things.
The ten thousand things carry yin and embrace yang.
They achieve harmony by combining these forces.
Men hate to be "orphaned," "widowed," or "worthless,"
But this is how kings and lords describe themselves.
For one gains by losing
And loses by gaining.
What others teach, I also teach; that is:
"A violent man will die a violent death!"
This will be the essence of my teaching.
Verse Forty Two
David Hinton
Way gave birth to one,
and one gave birth to two.
Two gave birth to three,
and three gave birth to the ten thousand things.
Then the ten thousand things shouldered yin and embraced yang,
blending ch'i to establish harmony.
People all hate scraping by orphaned, destitute, ill-fated, but true dukes and emperors call themselves just that.
Some things gain by loss, and some lose by gain.
I only teach
what the people teach:
Tyranny and force never come to a natural end.
I've taken the people as my schoolmaster.
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008
Is this an important verse? I think it contains the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
Here's an experiment:
Copy the line below and enter it into Google.
the answer to life, the universe, and everything
It seems they agree!
Here's a different position:
Verse Forty Two
Ron Hogan, ~2000
Chapter 42 starts out
with some cosmic mumbo-jumbo
about Tao making one,
one making two,
two making three,
and three making everything else.
I don't know what it means,
and, frankly,
I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Let's get to the practical part:
Men hate to be called
powerless, insignificant, or unworthy,
but that's how
Masters describe themselves.
Because when we lose, we've won.
And when we succeed, we've failed.
Other people will tell you
what I'm telling you now:
"Live by the sword, die by the sword."
That's pretty much what Chapter 42
boils down to.
More to come (especially about the cosmic mumbo-jumbo),
Jim
From: simon
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008
Yes, this is an interesting verse!
Not sure that
Quote:
the first starts out
with some cosmic mumbo-jumbo
about Tao making one,
one making two,
two making three,
and three making everything else.
That it is not instantly recognisable in an 'everyday' state of mind does not necessarily mean it is meaningless, does it?
I wonder if there is not a link here to verse 25? the "shady nothingness..."
What do you all make of it?
The "mechanics" of how creation happens is quite strange, seems to require a certain awakeness as it happens very fast!
Over to you!
Simon
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008
Hi Simon and All,
I see a link to verse 25 too. Both seem to be talking about creation, but I like to see them as talking about design, as in the Grand Design that Douglas talked and wrote about.
The words yin and yang occur only in this verse. These refer to the complementary opposites we talked about in the first verses. On the most basic level, yin is the receptive and yang the active. Yin is the container and yang the contents. Yin is the near side of the Tube (of awareness) and yang the far side. The finger points in to yin and out to yang. These most generic of terms could be applied to all the experiments. And here's the clincher: This verse says (in some translations) that yin is on my shoulders, and yang is in my arms. Yin is on my shoulders€just where I long imagined I had a head. Yin is my first person experience of what's right here at my center.
This verse gets the description right€receptive yin and active yang. It also gets the location right. Yin is on my shoulders, at my back. I carry yin and embrace or face yang.
There's a famous quote from Chuang Tzu: One Yin, one Yang; this is Tao. Here's a haiku I wrote based on this design.
Just what is the Tao?
It is yin on my shoulders
And yang in my arms.
Here's another quick verse base on this verse and on the experiments.
Look in and see the yin.
Look out and see the yang.
Look in and out and see the Tao,
And now you see the whole shebang.
This verse contains an experiment that points to the two sides and then goes on to say that the two sides (or forces) blend to achieve harmony. Yang in my arms? Isn't this the experiment where I spread my arms 160 degrees to embrace the world? Yin on my shoulders? Yin is capacity, receptivity€in other words aware space. And the two blend to make a harmonious whole. As Simon recently pit it: each is the other. There's no boundary to be discovered, only a wholeness, a single presence. And this presence is the Tao.
Ron Hogan says that Chapter 42 starts out with some cosmic mumbo-jumbo about Tao making one, one making two, two making three, and three making everything else. It seems clear to me that these three numbers refer to Tao and to yin and yang. And I take them in a design or architectural sense. One is the Tao, the single presence that I am, that we all are. It is life itself. Two is the yin and yang of the experiments€on my shoulders and in my arms. And three is the wholeness, balance, harmony and satisfaction that comes from seeing this design. Three is also the first number with a center€Tao at the center of yin and yang. Tao is both a singularity (one) and a totality (the whole shebang of yin and yang). Three is the triune design of awareness or presence or life.
This is a lot like Douglas's maps. It's an attempt to plot the design of awareness. Many of those maps show the "yang in my arms" side of the equation specifically with a drawing of outstretched arms embracing the world. You can find them right on this website. They also show the "yin at my back" aspect. And together they show the totality and wholeness, as well as the singularity, of the design. The maps show the triune design of sentient life. The numbers of verse 42 do the same thing. One represents the singular presence that is our life. Two represents the two aspects€the near side of yin and the far side of yang. Three represents the triune totality with Tao, life itself, at the center.
Douglas was an architect. He discovered the Grand Design. He drew a blueprint, many in fact. You see them in every book he published. I think the Tao Te Ching is doing the same thing. It isn't so much talking about origins and creation. It's talking about the design of the present moment. In a sense, the past is with us right now in everything we see, everything "in our embrace." And the future is with us too. It's in the unseen potential "on our shoulders." It's within each of us. Time is part of the Grand Design too. It's not a separate matter. It's on show too.
Many commentators say that this verse is connected to verse 40, which talks about this same two-way looking, not in terms of yin and yang, but of the seen (yu) and the unseen (wu). Not all interpreters translate these words as seen and unseen, but many do, and they sure make a good fit with headless seeing. Yin is obviously unseen (seen as an absence) while yang is seen. This ties it altogether for me. And, just to go back to the numbers of verse 42, this triune design makes possible the life of the 10,000 things in all its variety and beauty.
Cosmic mumbo-jumbo? I don't think so. But I can see how people unfamiliar with the experiments would laugh at all of this. If they didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao, as verse 41 tells it.
All for now,
Jim
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008
Another triad that is mentioned (more than once) in the Tao Te Ching is that of Heaven, Man, and Earth. These three aren't meant to be taken literally as the sky above, the mud below. They refer to the unseen yin (heaven) and the visible yang (earth) with mankind (and all sentient beings) in between. That's my view of the matter.
Douglas uses the same terms in many of his articles. And consider The Hierarchy of Heaven and Earth. The Tao Te Ching also uses the terms this and that, which Douglas specifically mentions in The Religions of Man.
Language is rich in terms for this basic pattern the experiments reveal!
Jim
From: simon
Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008
Hi Jim and All,
Yes, this really is a rich verse: I like the view of
Quote:
receptive yin and active yang. It also gets the location right. Yin is on my shoulders, at my back. I carry yin and embrace or face yang.
And while awaiting any "revelation" about the "one, two & three", there are some beautiful descriptions of the "big One"
Quote:
People hate to be children without parents, lonely people without spouses, or men without food to eat,
Quote:
No one wants to be "orphaned," " widowed," or "unworthy."
Yet, as open space or capacity where is the second, the parent or partner, the pride or confidence in a separate identity? No-thing to hang adjectives on!
The first thought that appeared about this "1. 2. 3" has another slant - I share it out of interest rather than an 'alternative'...
There is "that shady nothingness" out of which appears a feeling of existence - call it "I AM" if you will - and the three (a throwback from my Vedic days?) recalls the three Guna or forces -like strands of a rope - of clarity, creation/action and decay or sleep, which I see in action all around... all "creation" is ruled by these three...
Now I am not promoting this as "a final version" - just a suspicion that words, loaded as they are with all their associations, are no match for the unnameable!
There has always been (in my experience) a great simplicity in all these verses - the sort of simplicity that comes from stepping back and taking in the whole view...
Still, I am waiting for the penny to drop!
I enjoy the
Quote:
Just what is the Tao?
It is yin on my shoulders
And yang in my arms.
This shares the feeling of love for all that accompanies seeing here.
What do others find?
Simon
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008
Hi Simon,
I like what you say about the second half of the verse containing beautiful descriptions of the big one.
I'm not familiar with the three Guna, but I don't see why they wouldn't be associated with the Three of this verse. I'm not promoting my view of this verse as "final" either. I just like the way it seems to fit so perfectly with the experience and the maps.
I know what I am saying is too detailed and analytical. That's not the spirit of the Tao Te Ching. I like reading my favorite versions of the TTC in one leisurely sitting. That way the flavor of the work comes through beyond the words. Still, this verse seems so obscure with its numbers that I find it useful (if not poetic) to have an idea of what the numbers mean. I think the first part of this verse really all boils down to that haiku:
Just what is the Tao?
It is yin on my shoulders
And yang in my arms.
There's no map here and no numbers, just an implied experiment, a hint that the Tao is in plain sight.
Jim
From: simon
Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008
Hi Jim & All,
Yes, the
Quote:
It is yin on my shoulders
And yang in my arms.
is a nice, effortless way to be. This was much in mind yesterday - when a curious event happened.
Driving my tractor to mow the paths (grass and brambles almost a metre high) I noticed that recent storms had broken quite a few trees. As the front wheel rolled over one, it twisted the tree up and - like some medieval knight - I was about to be speared by two other branches. No time to panic, the right arm pushed against the branch - I wasn't moving, nor the tractor - just the branch (but I wouldn't put it that way to everyone!) - and it broke. Nice of it to give way, otherwise I would have been speared in the stomach! This branch is at least 4 inches diameter... I am pretty sure i couldn't do that if I tried!
Headless attention is not a luxury. The force of the body cannot be measured just by the muscle power.
The fact that there is mystery is no reason to be vague or lost, either: perhaps mysteries are to be enjoyed?!
As regards "too detailed", I share the same reservation, and I have a great respect for this work: not a verse is superfluous and there is a desire to understand all of them. Yet they all (seem to) point to simplicity, not complication...
Anyway, great fun this voyage through time (2400 years ago?) to the present!
Simon
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008
In the interest of simplicity and brevity, here's a haiku version of this verse.
Just what is the Dao?
It is yin on my shoulders
And yang in my arms.
Orphaned, abandoned,
Lonely and impoverished,
This too is the Dao.
And so I teach that
Those who live by violence
Die by violence.
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008
For one gains by losing
And loses by gaining.
This is usually interpreted to mean that gaining power or possessions or reputation goes along with the need to protect them, to save face.
Lose face and gain the world! Gain face and lose the truth.
Jim
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008
I'm posting this here because it talks about Manifest Tao and Unmanifest Tao in terms of Yin and Yang. It seems to belong to this verse that mentions yin and yang, though it relates to other verses too, especially the first one. This verse suggests that Unmanifest Tao is on my shoulders, and Manifest Tao is in my arms. The experiments prove it.
Jim
Diane Morgan / p 25 / Magical Tarot, Mystical Tao / 2003
Since Taoism understands the world as a duality, in Yin and Yang, it shouldn€t come as a surprise that we can think about the Tao in two different ways€a Yang way and a Yin way. The Yang Tao is the Manifest Tao, the Tao-that-can-be-spoken. It characterizes the whole world of becoming. Day and night, male and female, sun and moon are all features of the Manifest Tao, the visible, pulsating, ever-changing, glorious, miraculous world we live in.
But there€s another, deeper Tao. This is the Unmanifest Tao, the deep Yin Tao beneath what we see and know, the Tao-that-cannot-be-spoken. The distinction between the Manifest and the Unmanifest Tao is so crucial that it comprises the very first chapter of the Tao Te Ching€
All religions yearn toward the Supreme. € Taoism, on the other hand, understands Being-ness itself, a Supreme Being-ness that pervades the cosmos, and in which all Beings partake. It is no a place, state, god, or condition. It can€t be reached by effort or handed out by grace. It is the essential/existential quality of the cosmos itself. In its essential, original state, it is the Unmanifest Tao, unitary, hidden, holy. In its existential, created condition, it is the Manifest Tao, the insinuated Yin and Yang.
The Unmanifest Tao is eternal. It isn€t part of Time. Time is a process of individuation, the separating out of one instant from another, of naming and characterizing each particular moment. This is a feature of the manifest world, which proceeds instant by instant like a flowing river, symbol of the Manifest Tao. It declares itself, however, within the smallest flower and the largest galaxy. €
The Unmanifest Tao is limitless. It knows no boundary; it takes up no space. It is indeed €darkness within darkness.€ The Unmanifest Tao holds the Manifest Tao as the empty bowl holds the water, and the darkness makes possible the light.
The Unmanifest Tao is nameless, and can be best indicated only by negatives such as €un-manifest,€ un-knowable,€ and €time-less.€ Names are limitations. By calling something €blue,€ one excludes €red€ and €yellow.€ The ultimate must be forever beyond names. The Manifest Tao takes on all the names and qualities of the universe: great and small, dark and light, bliss and sorrow.
The Unmanifest Tao is Being-ness without Being. If it were Being itself, it would be Manifest. If it were non-Being, it could not be made manifest. It is Being-ness without Being and without non-Being, but bearing the potentiality of all.
The Unmanifest Tao is Yin; the Manifest Tao is Yang. The Unmanifest Tao is potential; the Manifest Tao is power. One proceeds from the other as a child proceeds from its mother. Yang is part of Yin, and Yin is part of Yang. The Unmanifest Tao gives birth to the Manifest, or what we call €Nature.€
From: ja_juan
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009
what a mystical verse!
the only thing that comes to mind is:
1)void/nothing
2)world/something
3)life/perception
The void (1) created the big bang and the universe (2), the elements of nature, organic and inorganic produced life forms (3).
This probably agrees with the story science is talking about.
People (the three) hate to admit their "void nature" (the one) as a lonely one, without possesions, relatives etc, but this is true kingdom.
So, to enter true kingdom, you have to lose from the material world and admit/recognise the void world (1).
If you're living to win in the living world (3), you're actually losing in the grand scheme. Your fall will "hurt".
Too much of a simplistic explanation, I know... but that's what came to mind .
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009
Hi Juan,
The one-two-three of this verse leaves open a lot of possibilities. Yours is certainly a nice progression, and it fits with headless seeing.
I don't know how well my math works, but one way I think of it is Dao=1, Yin/Yang=2, and Dao/Yin/Yang=3. Yin=the headless space. Yang=the world in my embrace. Dao=the inseparable presence of the two. It's just a shorthand reminder of the design of perception. It's just something that works for me.
I'm glad you commented on this verse. It's one of my favorites. I like your interpretation of the 1-2-3 as a historical progression and the progression of an individual life as it unfolds. You've given me another way to look at this verse. It certainly fits Douglas's view of how we grow up to adulthood (stage 3) only after we grow down in adolescence (stage 2). We have to go through the second stage to really grow up. We can't remain infants (stage 1) all our lives. We have to join the 'human club' before we can recover our original spacious natures.
Thanks for keeping the discussion going,
Jim
From: ja_juan
Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009
Jim, your explanation makes sense.
I have always been wondering about the "tao" and its relationship with yin/yang.
Thanks!
Giannis
From: ja_juan
Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009
How about that?
It could fit headlessness that way:
The one= the "void"
The two= the image of "other", also our image, the face others see as us
The three= the "mirror", our delusion of a self image
The ten thousand things= the world
(it sounds like our history)
Forum Archive verse 6
Verse Six
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007
Verse Six
from LAO-TZU TE-TAO CHING by Robert G Henricks, 1989
The valley spirit never dies;
We call it the mysterious female.
The gates of the mysterious female€
These we call the roots of Heaven and Earth.
Subtle yet everlasting! It seems to exist.
In being used, it is not exhausted.
Verse Six
from The Way of the Ways by Herrymon Maurer, 1985
The spirit of low places does not die.
Call its mysteriousness feminine.
The gate of this mysteriousness
Is the source of heaven-and-earth.
Unceasingly, unceasingly, it seems to persist.
Use it and it won't wear out.
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007
Verse Six introduces the symbols of the spirit of the valley and the mysterious female. The term mysterious female has nothing (or perhaps little) to do with physical gender or s-e-x.* I believe that, in the sense of this verse, we are all both female and male, non-being and being. These are the primary complements of wholeness or complete presence. Why mysterious female? This does sound a little like some modern sexual stereotypes to me. But that's not the meaning. The mysterious female represents the near side of our vision. It is empty capacity, receptiveness. Lao Tzu, like Douglas, directs us to the place that we overlooked for so many years. This empty side is the root or source or ground of heaven-and-earth. It's the gate from which the world emerges. It's the female and creative side of each of us. And it's the same in all of us. It's mysterious because it's unknown. We see it, but we can't divide and categorize it, since it has no parts. [This has nothing to do with the male cliche that the female sex is mysterious.]
The symbol of the valley reminds me of the experiment where we spread our arms 160 degrees to embrace the world. Our arms form a kind of valley that is open and receptive to all that exists. I love this "experiment" because, when I do it, I can both see and feel the love for and acceptance of the world that is my very design. Embrace is a powerful word and gesture. Embracing the world becomes more than an experiment. It becomes the way of life, which is an alternate title for the Tao Te Ching. I take the world in my arms as well as in my sight.
I'm also reminded that Douglas called headless seeing a valley experience, as opposed to a peak experience. I am the valley of the world. I don't rise above it or look down upon it. The female and the valley are both powerful symbols.
Jim
From: Janet
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007
Hi jim, et all,
maybe the reference to the mysterious female is only an anology of continuously giving birth or newness out of no-thing.
maybe the spirit of the valley is what we are seeing out of, or the ground of being, for everything that comes to pass.
both are inexhaustible. beyond accepting/rejecting, it's what IS, the view in/view out.
other than that, i've nothing to add, at the moment.
love,
janet
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007
Hi Janet,
Yes, I like the idea of the mysterious female referring to the constant and continuous birthing of all things. What we see in the view out is what has been birthed by the last 15 billion years. We literally see the past in the view out. We see what has come to pass.
Some versions of this verse use the word womb instead of female. It could be considered to represent the potential of pure being or the view in. It appears as emptiness, but it is pregnant with potential. It's the future. It's hidden in the sense that it's not yet manifest, hasn't yet come to pass. The view in is the womb and the future of the world.
Love,
Jim
From: Janet
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007
hi jim,
i really am intrigued with your response, and enjoyably so. gets me thinking.....if the view in appears as emptiness and is pregnant with potential (the future), and we see the past in the view out (all thats been birthed), then really what the heck does NOW mean? its slippery in a sense. NOW, to me, can only suggest 'awareness'. awareness of consciousness (all that is).
i just don't know. what do you think?
love,
janet
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007
Hi Janet,
I absolutely agree with you. Now represents awareness. Awareness is Presence, all that is present or now. Awareness is the essence of our life. Past and future are the two complementary sides of now, presence, or awareness. And life is a birthing process. The mysterious female. Seeing is the same. It begins in a void and ends in fullness. It's a visible birthing process too. Wonderful design.
Love,
Jim
From: simon
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007
Hi all,
Everything said here I concur with, and just want to add how I appreciate a "feeling of open-handed detachment" or "acceptance" of everything that comes through this verse; just as it does with seeing.
The Christian idea of 'virgin birth' holds this sense for me, too.
After all, the fruit bowl is not influenced by the fruit it contains, and a mirror does not 'chose' what it will, or will not, reflect...
Anyway, love to all
simon
From: Janet
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007
jimclatfelter wrote:
Hi Janet,
I absolutely agree with you. Now represents awareness. Awareness is Presence, all that is present or now. Awareness is the essence of our life. Past and future are the two complementary sides of now, presence, or awareness. And life is a birthing process. The mysterious female. Seeing is the same. It begins in a void and ends in fullness. It's a visible birthing process too. Wonderful design.
Love,
Jim
hi jim,
now, is a challenge to capture. like 'fleeting'. i've been just sitting with it, and i keep giggling for some reason...... oh, and i'm perfectly sober, so nothing like that.
love,
janet
From: Janet
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007
simon wrote:
Hi all,
Everything said here I concur with, and just want to add how I appreciate a "feeling of open-handed detachment" or "acceptance" of everything that comes through this verse; just as it does with seeing.
The Christian idea of 'virgin birth' holds this sense for me, too.
After all, the fruit bowl is not influenced by the fruit it contains, and a mirror does not 'chose' what it will, or will not, reflect...
Anyway, love to all
simon
hi simon,
its interesting how ideas that religions have can eventually string together with some understanding or so.
love,
janet
From: Janet
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007
Janet wrote:
hi jim,
now, is a challenge to capture. like 'fleeting'. i've been just sitting with it, and i keep giggling for some reason...... oh, and i'm perfectly sober, so nothing like that.
love,
janet
hi jim,
maybe some more clarity to my experience: the process happening, that i'm aware of or present for, is 'fleeting'. presence is always now. its always 'just this', now. i can't see 'now' in the realm of time though. it would miss the mark, so to speak. its a challenge to describe the sense i have. that is another attempt, is all.
love,
janet
From: orebor
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007
Hi Jim, Janet, Simon, James... (never mind, just saw Jesus Christ Superstar again...)
Quote:
The valley spirit never dies...
Quote:
The spirit of low places does not die...
The reference to a spirit of valley or low places, taken literally, reminds me of the "bottom line" experiment. I'm not sure if this verse is refering to exactly the same thing, but it fits in nicely all the same.
The fact that It never dies is just what D.E. Harding is trying to make clear in the book I'm reading at the moment: "the little book of life and death". What can and must die (as in end, finish, stop) is only little me.
Jim wrote:
What we see in the view out is what has been birthed by the last 15 billion years. We literally see the past in the view out. We see what has come to pass
While Seeing, there isn't really a view out, for me, as in: look what is out there, outside of me. Also, what is seen "out there" is there now. Doesn't this mean it is also birthed by the now, right now? It all feels very fresh, constantly.
While Seeing, past and future are absent. They seem to be part of the secondary complements world, in some way. And the now never is, like Janet wrote:
Quote:
i can't see 'now' in the realm of time though. it would miss the mark, so to speak
Eckhart Tolle was in Rotterdam last week and gave a talk I went to, and he said something like "the now, your true self, reality, are one and the same."
D.E. Harding says in "The Little Book of Life and Death", talking about the Timeless:
Quote:
... And just as I AM HERE explodes to take in all that's there... so I AM NOW explodes to take in all that's then - past as well as future, the first pages of the story of the world as well as the last.
This also, to me, links the present moment with the huge ME and so, to the realm of primary complements.
Orestes
From: Luc
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007
Jim;
I compare your translations to mine :
Quote:
The valley spirit never dies
becomes : the spirit of the depth does't die. In the remarks by the author the spirit of the depth is said to be Tao. I like the link to the Bottom Line of Douglas, the deepest Spot.
Quote:
These we call the roots of Heaven and Earth.
In the Chinese philosophy Tao existed. Out of Tao came Wu Ji, represented by an empty circle. Wu Ji is empty but contains everything as possibility, idea. Out of Wu Ji comes Tai Ji, the secondary complements, represented by Yin and Yang. Yang is connected with Heaven and Yin with Earth, so Tao gives birth to Yin and Yang, the two aspects of the world.
This is a very strange expression. While Wu Ji is without motion, the beginning of motion creates Tai Ji, Yin and Yang.
Can it be compared to Seeing ? When I keep my Eye open, there are no complements, there is simply everything appearing in the Void. But when something draws my attention (whose attention ?) I focus and the complements appear, are born. Does this make sense to you ?
The last line is translated in my version as :' Who leans on this won't know any effort.' This refers back to wu wei : if you trust Tao, everything will happen without effort. If you trust Seeing, nothing can trouble you.
I'm very grateful for this initiative. I've read these verses before, thought I knew what it all was about. And now I discover the deeper meanings, the words I didn't really read, the ideas I overlooked.
Thank you all for your wonderful contributions to this.
Luc
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007
Orestes, I didn't see the connection to the bottom line experiment. It's so clear now that you mention it, especially when you say low places instead of valley.
Jim
From: headexchange
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007
Jim,
I also love the experiment where you open your arms and embrace the world. And I like the way you say that this embrace becomes a way of life.
Janet,
Your words are so clear and deep and you!
Orestes - the bottom line, right down here at the bottom of the world!
The Valley Spirit never dies. Isn't this amazing. One's true nature never dies. Always there is something happening in it, now. Here and now.
Richard
From: marc
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007
This verse seems like a perfect description of what DH calls the view in.
Refering to it as a female reminds me of how I drew upon the Tao's yin/yang symbol when pondering how this world of many could possibly appear from One or No-thing. I looked to nature for a demonstration and I immediately saw a connection between natures process of reproduction and the classic yin/yang symbol.
The female represents the Spacious or Containing aspect of Reality, empty as the vaginal canal, and self containing like an egg.
The male represents the Energetic or the Active aspect of Reality, extending outwards as the penis, and fertile like the sperm.
The inseperablity of the male/female (one) naturally births offspring (the many), which in turn, spontaneously and naturally repeats this pattern infinitely.
When demonstrating my analogy to my wife, i found myself drawing the yin yang symbol with the yin being on the left and the yang being on the right. I drew a little eye in the top half of each side with a slight line below to indicate meeting mouths. Instantly, it looked like a picture of a man and woman making love, birthing new life.
On the right side, (yang) the woman appears top heavy, bosomy with a larger eye because the fat part of the swirl is on top. The female archtype is more round and curvaceous whereas the male archetype appears bottom heavy representing a large and muscular body making the head tiny in contrast.
And just like the top half of my picture looks like a skinny male head kissing a larger round female head. The bottom half looks like the the male (left) is extending outwards and penetrating the female (right).
Well, in at least in my filthy mind it did.
But now Luc has introduced me to a concept that I have never heard of. The very birthing of the empty circle which contains the yin and yang. Just from Lucs brief description, it still sounds like the same process of nature reproducing itself. It seems that no matter on what level we look at this, the design of life is always the same.
Wether its the insperability of Wu Ji & Tai Ji creating the appearance of the yin yang. Or the inseperability of yin and yang creating This. Or the inseperabilty of man and woman creating offspring. It all reminds of the symbol of the spiral. The same pattern expressing itself infinitely.
This is all so amazing. Thanks Jim for making this opportunity available. What fun!
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007
Since the Valley and Low Places could refer to a state of depression, I think this is a good place to include a quote from page 173 of Head Off Stress by Douglas Harding.
"To sum up and conclude this section, let's put the question: what, precisely, are you to do about the depression that's getting you down at this very moment?
"The answer comes in two parts. the first is: See, and see what happens. It is the basic proposition of this book, its working hypothesis for testing all day and every day, that the solution of your problem, no matter what it is, is to see whose it is. Not to understand or feel or think who has the problem, but to actually gaze on that WHO and await what comes of gazing. This seeing and waiting you can always do, whatever your need. The rest is out of your hands.
"Which brings us to the second half of our answer. See, see what happens, and trust it. If, owing to your temperament (say), or your acquired habits of mind, or the specially difficult circumstances you find yourself in, your depression insists on hanging around in spite of its ever-renewed dismissal € why then your business is to submit to it, willingly. The willingness doesn't leave it unchanged. It makes the world of difference. More than depression accepted, more even than depression intended, depression trusted as what's needed at the time, as hiddenly benificient € this isn't depression in the old sense. It is precisely what the sage in the Tao Te Ching is referring to when he says that he alone is depressed. It is milk from the Mother's breast, containing what are for you essential vitamins."
See, and see what happens, and then trust what happens. Isn't that wei wu wei, actionless activity? I find it to be the perfect definition.
From: Janet
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007
what wonderful posts!
thank you orestes, luc, simon, marc, jim and richard. fascinating input. it makes me feel like i've been travelling, yet, haven't moved.
jim -glad you brought up depression. in my experience, its like compression, a denser feeling. it includes physical, emotional, and spiritual and whatever other 'al' there is. an analogy may be an imploding star. a thought appears, like, 'here we go again'. alone in this, yet the whole world comes along for the ride. then there is nowhere, but out, again. like, an exploding star. the experience is like expansion. the world is lighter, brighter, and capacity is like really really bigger (if possible). i mean, the show must go on!
allowing for it, is the best response, imo. the difficulty is, if you've never seen it and been back, it feels scary to be experiencing it. but, once you've gone all the way to the very deepest depth, it just lightens one's feeling about it. if there is any glimpse of a compressing feeling thereafter, its just like, 'okay, wonder what i'm going to learn this time'.
well, i don't know if that makes any sense to you. it is not necessary to experience it, but, just sharing that its perfectly okay to experience it.
love,
janet
From: orebor
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007
Janet wrote:
well, i don't know if that makes any sense to you
Yes, it does. It is immensly liberating to start trusting scary things, scary sensations like depression, fear etc. instead of struggling to keep them at arms length or ignore them.
Janet wrote:
what wonderful posts! thank you
Why, thank you too . I agree. I like that it is insight-oriented, experience based, instead of intellectual play.
Orestes
From: jimclatfelter
Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007
Hi Luc,
Quote:
In the Chinese philosophy Tao existed. Out of Tao came Wu Ji, represented by an empty circle. Wu Ji is empty but contains everything as possibility, idea. Out of Wu Ji comes Tai Ji, the secondary complements, represented by Yin and Yang. Yang is connected with Heaven and Yin with Earth, so Tao gives birth to Yin and Yang, the two aspects of the world.
This is the subject of Verse Forty Two. It's the only verse where Lao Tzu mentions yin and yang. I believe that what he says there fits perfectly with the design of seeing and life itself. To me yin and yang are names for the primary complements of the Tao. I wrote a verse about it a few years back.
Look in and see the yin.
Look out and see the yang.
Look in and out and see the Tao.
And now you see the whole shebang.
We normally aren't aware of the yin side. It's the empty, receptive, inner side, the place where we have no face. Lao Tzu and Douglas point us back to the yin side, Douglas with experiments, Lao Tzu with these wonderful symbols from nature. Seeing adds the near side of presence back into our conscious awareness. I agree with you that it takes some focus at first for this to happen. I become aware of the near side, my facelessness, but then it effortlessly becomes part of the view, completes the view and defines it.
Here's the way I see it. Seeing (and trusting) both sides (or aspects) makes us whole, the whole Tao, the whole shebang. The Tao is a single presence (wu ji). It's not really divided between yin and yang (tai ji). There's no boundary between the two. They merge with each other as tea with hot water.
Here's a haiku based on Verse Forty Two:
Just what is the Tao?
It is yin on my shoulders
And yang in my arms.
These are Lao Tzu's words. Yin is the emptiness on my shoulders, so to speak, and yang is the world I embrace in my arms. This is the Tao. And this is the experiment where I spread my arms to embrace the world. This experiment instantly makes me whole and brings me home.
I didn't really mean to jump so far ahead, but I wanted to respond to your post about those symbols from Chinese philosophy. They fit in with headless seeing so perfectly. And it seems to me that both Verse Six and Verse Forty Two point to the open arms experiment.
Jim
PS, I want to add my thanks to all of you for making this such a wonderful discussion.
From: headexchange
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007
Janet,
I appreciate your contribution about the feelings of depression etc. and your experience of what happens if you don't interfere, but observe them from the nothingness - how they change, how they lead back into the world that is whole, how there is something to learn from them. Fits in perfectly with Orestes' experience and Jim's quotation from Douglas.
In my experience, feelings are not separate from the rest of what is happening in the void.
It is morning here in London. I'm looking out into my garden. The tops of the trees are orange - the sun is touching them. How can I separate the leaves from the sun's rays? I feel a subtle joy. How can I separate this joy from the morning, from the sunny leaves? There's nothing here to contain them in, in which to keep them separate.
Colin Oliver wrote a haiku years ago that went something like this -
My joy goes stamping
up the road
in the little boy's coat.
I think it was about his young son.
Richard
From: Janet
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007
luc, mark, and jim,
thanks for explaining wu ji, tai ji, and yin and yang, etc. i don't know these words but, after descriptions/explanations, i understand their meaning. i can't yet use the terms without notes or so. i'm way behind in that respect.
it may take awhile for me in that regard. i just tend to express my experience or my thoughts. it usually comes to my attention that there are words for that already.
orestes and richard,
yes to it all, regarding depression. it seems scary and terribly sad to go through but, it has a way of revealing newness and beauty out of this. lovely really!
i notice some people are unable to accept another experiencing depression. you may hear, 'snap out of it', 'just be happy', etc.
it really isn't necessary. just be (being space for it all to happen in),
and let them be. it turns and changes in its own time and pace. in the mean time, just keep lovin' them, however they may appear.
thank you all.
love,
janet
From: orebor
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007
Janet wrote:
...i'm way behind in that respect
i just tend to express my experience or my thoughts...
Yes, please. I'm enjoying that.
Quote:
... it usually comes to my attention that there are words for that already.
Maybe we should turn around... then you are in front
Orestes
From: Janet
Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007
Quote:
Maybe we should turn around... then you are in front
Orestes
orestes,
that's funny. it cracked me up!
very allowing for another, imo. bless your heart!
love,
janet
From: Jerry
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007
I€ve been in bed for the past few days, suffering from a bout of flu. I opened the computor and it was great reading all your interesting posts. I had been thinking about this verse while floating through feverish states, alternately sweating and shivering. What has made an impression on me is Lao Tzu€s view on the importance of the body, how central and fundamental it is in his teachings.
Verse 6 continues a theme that has already been presented in the first verse, that of the €mysterious mother€. As many of you noted, this female yin principle is associated with birth, fertility, procreation, generation, fecundity, the earth, the valley, darkness, wetness and so on. In the first verse we are told that this principle can be used to identify the source of all creation, the first cause of the named phenomena of the world. Here the idea is developed, the female principle, the €spirit of the valley€ revealing the root of heaven and earth. Which is quite remarkable when one one considers the implications.
Compared to many other spritual philosophies, the Tao Te Ching does not deny or reject the body; it is closer to modern science in that biological principles are seen to govern life processes, providing a fundamental key to how we interpret existence. The yin principle, although mysterious, is not occult. Lao Tzu is saying that creative energy is natural, never-ending and can be tapped into and used effortlessly, once we are aware of it, and open to it. And of course, s-e-x is a major expression of this energy.
Janet, your thoughts about depression were specially insightful. Similar thoughts were going through my mind as I lay in my dream-like fever: we learn as much from our emotions and bodily processes as we do from our rational intellect. (Hope I€m not misinterpreting your comments?)
Jerry
From: Janet
Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007
Jerry wrote:
Compared to many other spritual philosophies, the Tao Te Ching does not deny or reject the body;
we learn as much from our emotions and bodily processes as we do from our rational intellect.
Jerry
hi jerry,
well put! why deny anything? just observe/witness thoughts, emotions, and bodily processes. its already being done anyway. awareness is just recognising them for what they are and that is processes - processing, changing, -always making whole. maybe it can be related to the function of homeostasis in the physical sense. maybe just its function in a broader sense.
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